When did teleporting and jailing become the standard for most sits and why? Why I believe that's bad for the culture.

[Makoto]

This is something that I have noticed a lot of in the 11 months I've returned to being active.

 

 

This is how it usually goes down. I call a sit against someone I accuse of mass rdming. The staff member who accepted the sit brings me. The staff member then teleports and jails the person I have accused. The sit proceeds from there.

 

Other times I see players getting teleported and jailed for non mass rdm sits only to be unjailed within 5 minutes.

 

What's going on there? I swear teleporting and jailing was never so widely used a few years ago. What happened?

 

 

I believe that teleporting and jailing before speaking to the accused starts sits off on the wrong foot. Psychologically, the accused is likely to believe that they are already being presumed as guilty and the quality of the sit suffers. That's partially why ban appeals where the poster types some form of "The staff member didn't listen to me" happen.

 

Speaking of presuming guilt, anytime a staff member asks "Why did you [insert rule violation here] this player?", when in a sit, I internally facepalm. That's a textbook example of presuming guilt that causes the accused to behave defensively. That's part of where the perceived bad attitudes from players in sits come from. This behavior is killing the quality of sits.

 

Now I'm not here to type out a rant without any solutions to my grievances. My solutions are what I did when I was a staff member way back in the day and I'm putting my 0 report against and 0 ban appeals on bans I issued record on the line.  The following is what I think can bring dignity and quality back to sits:

 

. When you bring players to a sit, tell the accused what they are there for in a *non-accusatory* way. For example: Player A has accused you of [rule violation here]. Or Player A says you [rule violation here]. Trust me, when the sit starts like that, the accused will be DYING to tell their side. (NOTE: Saying "Why did you rdm this person?" is what NOT to do. You do that and you've set an accusatory tone that will carry through the entire sit.)

 

. Cut down on the jailing. Give the players some dignity. If you believe someone might snap, have your admin stick out and set it to the freeze function. If a player tries any shenanigans, you freeze them, jail them, unfreeze them, and continue with the sit.

 

Feel free to discuss what you think about this topic and what I said on it.

[Rubik]

Some really great points here. What you're saying has been mostly accurate in my experience as well. Here's my take on it:

 

Garry's Mod has changed a lot in the past few years. The culture, playerbase, everything. There is like a 60% greater chance that I'm going to get shot in the face, cussed out, our screamed at while taking a sit. I think staff have been preemptively jailing players to try and reduce the chance of this happening. On one side, you're 100% correct, this does imply guilt before a proper sit has taken place and it does start things off on the wrong foot, however on the flip slide you see less bans being extended for "rdm in a sit" or "failure to comply with a sit" because those things just aren't possible anymore. Also in some circumstances such as Mass RDM you will see staff check logs prior to bringing both parties, so there's a possibility that they have already confirmed the user is at fault and will be banned following the sit. All in all I completely agree with your take on this and I hope that other staff will see this and feel the same way as you do.

 

Staff:

• Just like ban appeals, the burden is on the staff member to prove that the player is guilty.
• Let's do everything we can to not imply that the player is in trouble until we have verified it with evidence or logs.
• Taking sits as Staff On Duty will provide you immunity from being blasted in the face in a sit
• You can always use the !refund command to give a player their items back if they are killed while in a sit
• You can freeze players with the Physgun just like you would freeze a prop. JailTPing is pretty obsolete at this point
• Don't Jail people in public where other players can mess with them or harass them. Always bring them to sitland before jailing

[goodnight]

Amazing points made by both OP and Rubik.

 

On 5/17/2023 at 6:04 PM, Rubik said:

 

• Don't Jail people in public where other players can mess with them or harass them. Always bring them to sitland before jailing

I also really want to point THIS specific thing out too. I have had someone bring me to a fucking sit about a serious harassment issue regarding a player who targets me and me fucking only WHENEVER they come online, even after a ban, and I've had a sit happen directly next to casino where our lovely Goldfish0 kept blasting a swep with a sound. As an autistic person with sensory processing issues, trying to listen to ANYTHING in that sit was fucking horrible, and then to add on, when I told him to stop and leave the area, the person who the sit was about told me to "shut the fuck" because "he wasn't doing anything wrong" when in fact he was interrupting a sit handled extremely poorly by a staff member that I don't even think is on the fucking team anymore.

Staff may be a community effort that is volunteer work, but if you're going to sign up to be staff, for the LOVE OF GOD, please do the most basic things to ensure the person dealing with something, whether it's basic like RDM, or more serious like severe targeted harassment or death threats. It's a volunteer job, but if you don't want to volunteer, please leave the position in favor of staff who want to help people enjoy a server that is truly a wonderful place to play.

 

Also that being said.... we are all human and make mistakes.

[Succ The Zucc]

On 5/17/2023 at 6:04 PM, Rubik said:

Don't Jail people in public where other players can mess with them or harass them. Always bring them to sitland before jailing

So what you're saying is, is that I'm not allowed to play around with my guys that are in trouble....damnit. 

[Tene]

On 5/17/2023 at 11:04 PM, Rubik said:

Some really great points here. What you're saying has been mostly accurate in my experience as well. Here's my take on it:

 

Garry's Mod has changed a lot in the past few years. The culture, playerbase, everything. There is like a 60% greater chance that I'm going to get shot in the face, cussed out, our screamed at while taking a sit. I think staff have been preemptively jailing players to try and reduce the chance of this happening. On one side, you're 100% correct, this does imply guilt before a proper sit has taken place and it does start things off on the wrong foot, however on the flip slide you see less bans being extended for "rdm in a sit" or "failure to comply with a sit" because those things just aren't possible anymore. Also in some circumstances such as Mass RDM you will see staff check logs prior to bringing both parties, so there's a possibility that they have already confirmed the user is at fault and will be banned following the sit. All in all I completely agree with your take on this and I hope that other staff will see this and feel the same way as you do.

 

Staff:

• Just like ban appeals, the burden is on the staff member to prove that the player is guilty.
• Let's do everything we can to not imply that the player is in trouble until we have verified it with evidence or logs.
• Taking sits as Staff On Duty will provide you immunity from being blasted in the face in a sit
• You can always use the !refund command to give a player their items back if they are killed while in a sit
• You can freeze players with the Physgun just like you would freeze a prop. JailTPing is pretty obsolete at this point
• Don't Jail people in public where other players can mess with them or harass them. Always bring them to sitland before jailing

make staff land a safezoned area like spawn, so that jail is less incentivised / useless. there is no rdm in sit when u cant rdm in the sit. this also removes the necessity to auto jail for a mrdm report which will make sits run smoother as people aren't instantly felt as though they are guilty

[Drakos]

On 5/17/2023 at 4:04 PM, Rubik said:

Some really great points here. What you're saying has been mostly accurate in my experience as well. Here's my take on it:

 

Garry's Mod has changed a lot in the past few years. The culture, playerbase, everything. There is like a 60% greater chance that I'm going to get shot in the face, cussed out, our screamed at while taking a sit. I think staff have been preemptively jailing players to try and reduce the chance of this happening. On one side, you're 100% correct, this does imply guilt before a proper sit has taken place and it does start things off on the wrong foot, however on the flip slide you see less bans being extended for "rdm in a sit" or "failure to comply with a sit" because those things just aren't possible anymore. Also in some circumstances such as Mass RDM you will see staff check logs prior to bringing both parties, so there's a possibility that they have already confirmed the user is at fault and will be banned following the sit. All in all I completely agree with your take on this and I hope that other staff will see this and feel the same way as you do.

 

Staff:

• Just like ban appeals, the burden is on the staff member to prove that the player is guilty.
• Let's do everything we can to not imply that the player is in trouble until we have verified it with evidence or logs.
• Taking sits as Staff On Duty will provide you immunity from being blasted in the face in a sit
• You can always use the !refund command to give a player their items back if they are killed while in a sit
• You can freeze players with the Physgun just like you would freeze a prop. JailTPing is pretty obsolete at this point
• Don't Jail people in public where other players can mess with them or harass them. Always bring them to sitland before jailing

Counterpoint to the freezing players, a lot of the times it just doesn't work on the first try. No idea why. But everything else, I can agree with. 

[Guest]

5 hours ago, Drakos said:

Counterpoint to the freezing players, a lot of the times it just doesn't work on the first try. No idea why. But everything else, I can agree with. 

i agree with this, you guys have no idea how many rdms in a sit i could've avoided if the fucking physgun worked

[bugman]

On 5/17/2023 at 6:04 PM, Rubik said:

Some really great points here. What you're saying has been mostly accurate in my experience as well. Here's my take on it:

 

Garry's Mod has changed a lot in the past few years. The culture, playerbase, everything. There is like a 60% greater chance that I'm going to get shot in the face, cussed out, our screamed at while taking a sit. I think staff have been preemptively jailing players to try and reduce the chance of this happening. On one side, you're 100% correct, this does imply guilt before a proper sit has taken place and it does start things off on the wrong foot, however on the flip slide you see less bans being extended for "rdm in a sit" or "failure to comply with a sit" because those things just aren't possible anymore. Also in some circumstances such as Mass RDM you will see staff check logs prior to bringing both parties, so there's a possibility that they have already confirmed the user is at fault and will be banned following the sit. All in all I completely agree with your take on this and I hope that other staff will see this and feel the same way as you do.

 

Staff:

• Just like ban appeals, the burden is on the staff member to prove that the player is guilty.
• Let's do everything we can to not imply that the player is in trouble until we have verified it with evidence or logs.
• Taking sits as Staff On Duty will provide you immunity from being blasted in the face in a sit
• You can always use the !refund command to give a player their items back if they are killed while in a sit
• You can freeze players with the Physgun just like you would freeze a prop. JailTPing is pretty obsolete at this point
• Don't Jail people in public where other players can mess with them or harass them. Always bring them to sitland before jailing

Maybe not something so seemingly important but it also prevents them from muting or -repping the staff member using the e menu (somewhat common now) I know multiple staff who have 10 to 20 -reps from a random player mad they are being banned, or sits where the person being banned or Warned is just like “I just muted the admin so I can’t even hear what he’s saying now”. I get you can’t always prevent that but it lowers the times it happens.