Heal bots cant raid?

[riddim]

The thing with unwritten rules is that I've heard Kdawg himself doesn't want every single rule to be written and doesn't want players to sit there and read 10 pages worth of rules, but as problems like this arise I'm starting to think it should be.

Edited August 7, 2023 by riddim

[Chessmond]

1 minute ago, riddim said:

The thing with unwritten rules is that I've heard Suga himself doesn't want every single rule to be written and doesn't want players to sit there and read 10 pages worth of rules, but as problems like this arise I'm starting to think it should be.

The issue is how was i supposed to know i couldnt do this. I legit thought it was allowed, I have only ever been told to not use them to minge. Hence the verbal i have from dreadmore. Thats why i dont think this verbal is fair, as well as all the reason for not being able to raid with them apply to the defenders side aswell.

Edited August 7, 2023 by Terrry

[Tene]

 

 

8 hours ago, Hung Wang said:

I think that a heal bot should not be able to push people in the first place, its a heal bot not a push bot. this is true there is no rule and the staff team is definitely going to something about it whether it be making a rule changing and existing one or reworking bots altogether. but for now it has been discussed that they are for defending only. so i will -1 this report 

so there is no rule but we still got punished for it, so do unwritten rules still exist or not. The issue with unwritten rules is clarity, but when the SMOD team themselves say ''its not in motd so im not punishing for it'' and then switch it up and make up an unwritten rule to punish someone for its WAYY less a clarity issue - Either unwritten rules DO EXIST, which makes it clear what to look out for, or they dont exist, which also makes it clear what to look out for -- this whole flipflopping between unwritten rules existing and not existing is more confusing than the unwritten rules themselves.

 

 

7 hours ago, {GN} Isaac said:

Okay, so this was from my perspective, and tbh, I don't really raid, so I'm not going to say much about this. One thing I will say is that the position of this heal bot makes it impossible to shoot from the defender's point of view. So if this were to ever be used to raid, they should be in the defenders view so they can at least have a chance to destroy them.

This could be cool, but then the issue is for base defenses, do i have to now place it infront of my own dupe before a raid starts? either way i get what ur saying and it would make more sense if it was this type of rule instead of ''well u cant use it in raids but can in base defenses''. 
 

 

7 hours ago, Enowapi said:

i promise its been said SEVERAL times the past few weeks lol because of all the idiots placing it in that building outside fountain spawn just to minge, i know a few mods have said its only allowed to be used in an owned base

I asked pyro daddy a few days ago (maybe a week at this point i cant remember exact time) if there were any rules he knows about for healbots, and he said not that hes aware of. If smods themselves aren't aware of these rules that apparently mods know about how should I, a regular player, be able to have any knowledge of this, especially after any report I've made on someone for an unwritten rule has been denied because ''its not in the motd''.


 

 

7 hours ago, riddim said:

The thing with unwritten rules is that I've heard Kdawg himself doesn't want every single rule to be written and doesn't want players to sit there and read 10 pages worth of rules, but as problems like this arise I'm starting to think it should be.

And this is completely fine, my entire issue and reason I made the appeal, is that SMODS and Admins ever since I've been unbanned have been telling me that unwritten rules are no longer enforced, it is MOTD only - some said that sometimes it could be an unwritten rule which falls under the 'DO use common sense' rule, which makes sense, but this just isn't one of them cases, I DID use common sense and did USE the item for its purpose in the item description - it was coded and WRITTEN to be used like this, unless there have been major accidents when making this item. 

The issue is that unwritten rules are both not existing and existing at the same time in staff teams mind, when it (seemingly) benefits them or a friend ''its not in the rules so im not going to do anything'' - but then when they have an issue with something thats not written in the rules they still enforce the unwritten rule. 


If this appeal is accepted it means unwritten rules don't exist (to a degree, the DO use common sense rule could still be applied for most scenarios), and if it's denied it means that unwritten rules do exist.

The main reason i made the appeal is so I could get clarity on this, if you want the actual solution to the healbot issue, its not something you change in the rules, you have to change the way the item functions, because if you're not allowed to use it in the street, can't in a raid, and shouldn't (because its even more op than in raids) be able to use it in defenses, what is the point of the item that u need to be level 54 and spend 1m to craft and when can I use it?
 

[riddim]

1 hour ago, Tene said:

I DID use common sense and did USE the item for its purpose in the item description

I agree with this here actually and what Isaac said as well. I'm not an expert with the heal bot because I never use it but I don't understand why it can't be used in raids if it can be used in defenses. It does seem like common sense to use it in any raiding/basing scenario if the item description says it's used to push away enemies.

 

In both raiding and defending it can be extremely overpowered, hiding it behind your dupe or behind the wall to make it indestructible. Honestly the only time I've ever seen this item properly used was when Etho, Terry, Hammy and Green were terrorists and placing it in the street to prevent people from rushing them, it wasn't unfair in anyway since they could be sniped from far away. Other than that I've only seen the healbot used to minge. 

 

I don't think neither of you guys should have received a punishment, while terry does have a note on his profile, it wasn't really a descriptive note and from what I know he was using it to minge back then. I don't think Bam should take any blame for this either, it was in the heat of the moment for him and he didn't exactly know the ruling behind it as well. 

 

As for unwritten rules, you are right about it not being enforced unless the rules did change which I can't find anywhere.

+1

Edited August 7, 2023 by riddim

[Succ The Zucc]

inb4 I need to write EVERY way of FailRP into the MOTD to ensure "but it wasn't written" is never being used as an argument again.

 

The reasons I am going to +1 this is that the description of the item does make it seem like this could be used anywhere in any PvP scenario. That said please refrain from using it in raids. As for new items being brought into the server from the BP a list of uses for the items of what is and isn't allowed would be much appreciated. 

 

 

[Opila Bird]

I think the real issue is the juxtaposition of "we dont want to write all rules as that makes MOTD too long and is bad for players," and "unwritten rules are bad for players as it makes certain things just not known." We have to pick one and stick with it, cause right now its a pretty big issue. In all reality I think MOTD should have a tab that is "disallowed situations/ uses of items" which is just a dump for all the very misc rules that dont fall under common sense. Players have the ability to search the rules with a text prompt so having a long list like this wouldn't be an issue as they could go "i'm about to use a healbot, let me search the MOTD for the keyword 'healbot' and see what pops up," and then they can see "don't use healbots to minge or while raiding others, only while in your own base." 

There's also the issue of, if this item is considered too mingy to be used for basing, raiding, and just out in the street, it should probably be changed. Tene's suggestions look pretty good, but anything to allow them to actually be used without a ton of caveats would be a positive update.

Also as a final note, staff act like someone will remember the exact reason they got warned for something from over 7 months ago. If a rule is unwritten and they forget it after having broken it once, they are still punished as if they had full knowledge. This is just silly to expect people to always remember their exact warn reasons for niche situations that specifically AREN'T in the rules. 

Edited August 7, 2023 by bugman
the game

[Tene]

8 hours ago, bugman said:

In all reality I think MOTD should have a tab that is "disallowed situations/ uses of items" which is just a dump for all the very misc rules that dont fall under common sense.

when i was smod i wanted to make a discord channel of all unwritten rules, either just for staff to see or to be made public to players that were interested - and as its an unwritten rule it shouldnt be punished for unless repeeatedly broken - i think i either was demoted before i could do so or cause i just cant make new channels i was waiting for approval from someone else or something, either way i think this would be pretty good as it doesn't clutter motd and its just an extra area to check for niche situations/scenarios that an issue can arise in, and if a player unknowingly breaks it, just tell them about the rule and move on, no need for notes or anything unless clearly malicious intent etc

[Enowapi]

1 hour ago, Tene said:

when i was smod i wanted to make a discord channel of all unwritten rules, either just for staff to see or to be made public to players that were interested - and as its an unwritten rule it shouldnt be punished for unless repeeatedly broken - i think i either was demoted before i could do so or cause i just cant make new channels i was waiting for approval from someone else or something, either way i think this would be pretty good as it doesn't clutter motd and its just an extra area to check for niche situations/scenarios that an issue can arise in, and if a player unknowingly breaks it, just tell them about the rule and move on, no need for notes or anything unless clearly malicious intent etc

the entire purpose of a note is to let other staff know you've told them not to do it tho lol, otherwise they could just keep saying "i didnt know sorry" if you add a note saying told not to do this, and they do it again, then they get warned

[Tene]

8 hours ago, Enowapi said:

the entire purpose of a note is to let other staff know you've told them not to do it tho lol, otherwise they could just keep saying "i didnt know sorry" if you add a note saying told not to do this, and they do it again, then they get warned

right for established rules, this isnt how the current system works (or so ive been told) so i shouldnt have been given a note - if the ''unwritten rules'' were actually put somewhere and not just made up on the spot i think giving notes out would be fine, as there IS a place to see them, but since its not directly in motd you shouldn't be placed in the wrong and receive a punishment higher than a verbal.
with the current system though unwritten rules arent even meant to exist, and even if we did move to writing 'unwritten rules' just not in the motd but somewhere easily accessible this note is still silly because its a rule that was made up on the spot by smods (even admins are uncertain of when u can use heal bots rn despite smods saying u can use them in base defenses not raids)

[Coconut Overflow]

Do not use Healbots for raids, currently. It's unwritten for now, because we are working on it. I don't think having to put out a rule for something we are planning on working on is the correct move. Just don't use it. Unwritten or not, we are telling you now, do not use them.

Thank you!

 

EDIT: Any verbals in regards are for staff knowledge, and do not form punishment. After the change is made, we will remove them.

Edited August 8, 2023 by Coconut Overflow