( Trigger warning ) basing changes [2017 basing proposal]

[Mori]

5 hours ago, Rubik said:

Scenario (closest to 2017 basing imo)

   Remove all non-LOS raiding methods but keep LOS raiding tools

 I think how raiding in titsrp is at the moment is very unique but in all end everyone can agree the defender has an advantage which I think should be the case the base owner should have an advantage, but the fact you said (closest to 2017 basing imo) is laughable. C4 and Timebombs back then could work through walls. I see these changes as aging backwards. If we look at Darkrp Servers from what ive played we have the super op suit servers that live by the moto if everything is op then nothing is op. Then we have the darkrp servers that you need to lockpick or keypad through a base and raids become either hope the person is afk or sit there going back and fourth shooting through defender sided peak holes. With the changes your propose imagine raiding in rust but you can only jackhammer every wall down while the people are online, the makes bases no longer an way to stall defends and look for a possible pick while they are blowing through the base it makes the base everything. If you want to remove these raiding tools you will need to do a LOT more than just ban one-way props.

 

5 hours ago, Rubik said:

I kinda got tired of typing at this point but I may edit this later with more scenarios / props and cons. Basically the TLDR is, 2017 basing was fun because it required more skill. As soon as you hear that lockpick sound, you know shit is about to go down. At this point it's down to who has better aim. 

 Because Rubik lets be honest what your changes propose is removing complexity. I think everyone can agree that timing c4 and timebombs and blowing inside a side of the base while attempting not to get killed is way more skillful than lockpicking. "But what about the gun fights with no one way props" then what it comes down to "who has better aim" something you said that you wanted to apparently solve. If anything it makes aiming way more important. Timebombs are more than a raiding tool shooting them into a defenders base while they are posted up can and have resulted in 1 or 2 defender members killed. 

tldr I think this statement here happens if you do the changes not if you don't and quite honestly crazy.

 

 

6 hours ago, Rubik said:

Pros

• Users will no longer be discouraged from using 90% of the buildings in titsrp to base due to the use of C4 and other non-LOS raiding methods
• Users will be encouraged to build more intricate base designs
• Users will once again be able to combine a business (such as a gun store) and a base rather than using just warehouses for basing
• New users will not be discouraging from basing because more experienced players will not have any advantages
• Raiding will be easier / more fun and will require actual skill because you will have to face your opponent face to face

• Users will no longer be discouraged from using 90% of the buildings in titsrp to base due to the use of C4 and other non-LOS raiding methods
• Users will be encouraged to build more intricate base designs
• Users will once again be able to combine a business (such as a gun store) and a base rather than using just warehouses for basing

Yes a lot of buildings are less effective because of C4/Timebombs but there still leaves a lot of locations. When has ANYONE got on the server and wanted to base and was like "Damn all the good places are taken" that has NEVER happened there are plenty of viable locations.

More intricate base designs there will always be a meta you can try and deny it but there will these changes will just make people have to think for one day build a dupe everyone copies that one person and then we are back to square one because just like in other darkrp servers who don't have the tools we have now its all the same shit.

 

The fix for this has already happened we have automatic gun stores we have trading if someone wants to run a base and business it is easily done. Also all this update is going to do is change bases up? People arn't going to be like oh yes let me waste 30% of this base for a gun store. That will never happen if people base they try to base optimally and the amount of shit you can have in your base is directly correlated to how much space you have in there.

 

• New users will not be discouraging from basing because more experienced players will not have any advantages
• Raiding will be easier / more fun and will require actual skill because you will have to face your opponent face to face

New users will always have disadvantages. We know what guns to use we have enchanted guns(the problem in question more on that later) and fucking gun jam. Like gun jam will need to be insanely changed because if you are raiding a person and they have gun jam what the fuck are you going to do. "Oh they have 70% less dmg" well you can't blast into there base fast anymore you need to be in their los the entire time you want to progress, but yes I think raiding harder for new players because its a fucking unique raiding system that's something that makes this server unique and you want to remove it? What happened to giving new players some raiding tools like sugar raid. How about you have a way to explain the fundamentals of raiding and let them master it.

Raiding will be made easier yes in fact it will be made braindead. More fun I think you are crazy it is way more fun and exciting blowing into the base and rushing in for an epic gun battle because in this raiding you still have to face your opponent face to face. You rarely get kills without a face to face gun fight. These changes will make it almost certain you never have a face to face gun fight.


The Real Problem

I think the main issue in question is simple. Enchanted weapons. Legendaries and now even Artifacts provide such a HUGE advantage and they are not even that rare. You kill someone and take their gun they have another 40 lined up. Sugar made a good change making SBC's not 1 shot anymore but when some weapons time to kill is .2 seconds we have an issue. Why don't we try something like we did with mat bombs. Lets disable the increased stats of enchanted weapons. Allow for this change to be reverted but see how that would be. People won't run in bases and one shot people anymore. Keep the specials on the weapons I don't think the specials are a big issue and it will still allow enchanted weapons to have impact but not as big as an impact as they do now. 

@Rubik I look forward to your response

[Tene]

removing 'non los raiding' will just make the server 10x worse to play on from both basing and raiding sides. basing sides = wow u can now make ur base 10x simpler with it being 10x more effective than any 'good' base dupe used to be against raiders, so there's no 'skill' or thought involved in making a good base anymore, even though rubik says it'd lead to more intricate base designs, it'd simply make them more plain and boring with less thought involved. removing 1 ways doesnt really nerf basers either as they can still pop a fading door with a button whenever ur blowtorching/lockpicking and essentially instakill u as piklas says.

raiding sides = you basically cannot win a raid against someone unless you are baiting them into popping open a fading door and killing them before they can just hold left click and let go of E if they get shot at. raiders will basically never be able to win a raid unless the guy is afk or you can predict which of his multiple fading doors he'll peek at you from and even then it'd be rare for you to get the kill before they do, as any sentient defender will just wait for you to pull out a blowtorch or lockpick before opening fire, essentially allowing them to run down the clock - or have their buddies who are not even basing but on doors fly around the corner and kill you while you're lockpicking or something.

most 'non los' raiding tools' non line of sight usability solely apply to tiny bases like apartments or other, a majority of bases and areas the raider has to run in and put the bomb further in or shoot their own c4 in which the defenders can also just shoot back (add this as a tip for new players i guess).

as chesmond and others have already touched on, the whole like unique aspect to this server in mine and many others' opinion is the raiding, doing this just makes it like every other server with no real uniqueness to it (unless you're going to keep the legendary weapons which would keep it unique but would most definitely be a turn off for newer players instead of something that keeps them wanting to play). Players join and will either love the raiding or dislike it and leave, but that'd be the exact same case if you made it the plain old system which everyone's already used to which would make the server 10x more boring to play on and probably make both players new and old leave the server.

the thing i like about this server's raiding/basing system is that basing is known to be more overpowered but it's not incredbily inbalanced to the point of raiding being impossible, unlike the proposed system (imo). raiders can spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on raiding equipment just to have it get wasted by a raider shooting it back out or killing the guy, because let's face it the raider eventually has to walk into the base so it's not like they can entirely win a raid off of being out of the defender's LOS. there also counters to basically everything that a raider can use and counters to a lot of the stuff the defenders use, such as holy nades, areas to throw grenades through your base, having people on the outside come and counter, being able to shoot c4/timebombs out etc.
 

The main issue with basing in my opinion is that you're incentivised to go afk inside of your base to make money, tab in every once in a while to refresh your entities and then go back to being afk. The much more fun way which others may consider tedious, was how it used to be with old printers where you had to actually manage your printers, and as a reward you'd get more money out of it (with superclocking). Right now the only risk to basing is oh no what if i get raided while i tab out, back then the risk was 'if i turn on my superclocked printers and go afk for 10 minutes while theyre making money theres a good chance they can explode'.

upside: basing for a ton of money isn't a challenge of how many shows can you watch before you get bored, you have to actually be there (maybe keep some entities or options of entities where they make less money but are more afkable) to make money, and as a reward you get a lot more than if you afked. but there is a risk they explode if u afk or don't actually use them - perfect for tokens btw since they aren't guaranteed to just be in your base forever as they may explode and u just lost a token!

downside: "oh no im making less money for being idle than if i was actually doing something! i prefer the old basing system where i could afk for 3 hours and tab in every 10 minutes for millions and then resume afking, now I have to actually take care of my entities if i want them to be making me big bucks?!" - some users may dislike the babysitting aspect of it, which is why the entities would still be afkable but for less money, and if you don't want to afk you'd superclock or something similar.

again, everyone else has said this, nerf enchanted weapons, keep their abilities but also add some more 'passive' style ones as legerbs has said.
also even with these changes the same basing locations that are unused now will still remain unused because blowtorches would be in the picture, meaning you can't just propblock an entrance and forget about it you'd still have to protect both entrances.

[Hoopajoop]

basing as it is currently is a multi-tiered issue, and i think rubik's on the right track

 

we need c4 and timebombs currently 'cause one-ways make raiding impossible otherwise-- we trim off the fat of both and we'll at least be a step closer to some semblance of parity between raiders and those who are basing

 

as it is now, neither basing or raiding are much a test of skill, more a test of who's got more knowledge and resources

 

a test between people hunkered down invisible and safe behind a 1px shooting slit and a no-collided barrier one step behind and a load of one-ways, and people that know where to hang out and at what angle to shoot in c4 without any real retaliation, and after that phase of a raid is over it comes down to who's got the better enchants or item usage unless the raider just keeps sending c4 until the defenders slip and get blown up

 

it's all very one-note tbh

Edited October 1, 2022 by Hoopajoop

[Packet]

I think basing the way it is right now is very flawed. It caters to people that spam props and gives people with larges spaces to work with an advantage. You can prep a c4 outside someone's base and be into most bases within a minute or less. This makes intricate or unique bases few and far between. This is because, as you said, most spots are not used for basing because they're so small and prone to an easy c4 raid. Most people just do fence spam or make a long tunnel with a little turtle bunker to shoot from that makes it incredibly difficult to actually fire back. I don't like the idea of having weapons that boost procs or printers. I feel like those should either be temporary or permanent upgrades from basing or something else. Doesn't make sense to have a weapon benefit basing, especially if you don't plan on basing it makes enchanting useless. 

[Tene]

41 minutes ago, Hoopajoop said:

we need c4 and timebombs currently 'cause one-ways make raiding impossible otherwise-- 

surely with rubik's 'fix' it just makes the issue that the defenders are now the ones with non-los whereas the raiders have to be stood in the open staring at a prop to get through while the defenders can pop open a window for a split second to shoot them. basing/raiding right now is fine as it is in my opinion, thats not really the reason why people are disliking basing, its the entities and boredom side of things, the only issue with defending/raiding is the state of the enchanted weapons and how one-sided that whole topic is (basically only defenders can use them with little risk whereas raiders risk a ton more)... also again this whole raiders non-los thing is assuming that you can stand behind a wall and manage to get multiple timebombs/c4 into a base without them being shot back or any part of your body being visible, and then also managing to go through their base without being shot at on your way in before the actual face to face gunfight begins

 

 

41 minutes ago, Hoopajoop said:

as it is now, neither basing or raiding are much a test of skill, more a test of who's got more knowledge and resources

surely using your knowledge in a way that outplays the defender is the definition of being more skillful. again if you're saying the angle thing that literally does not exist, there is not 1 angle that will get you through an entire base by spamming timebombs there (again unless its a hotel base OR you're making some part of your body visible to be shot), and c4 are unpredictable in both the distance forward and vertically when shot along with the defender being able to just shoot it back.
also being able to raid a base on your own should require resources, it shouldnt just be oh you log on and can do it without losing anything since your cc already has a lockpick on it.

 

 

41 minutes ago, Hoopajoop said:

and after that phase of a raid is over it comes down to who's got the better enchants or item usage

you realise with rubik's proposed system this is just how every single interaction will go anyways? whoever has the better enchants or the best aim (it will almost always be the defender as 1) less risk of losing a enchanted gun as they close the fading door and inventory it and 2) they can still already see you before you can see them so they can just open the fading door and are auto-aimed onto you whereas the raider has to adjust aim from the props to the player).
With the current raiding system typically speaking raids won't really go the same route, you can fuck up the timing on your c4, your c4 might not shoot as far as u want it to, the defender may shoot it back, they may have people on the outside defending who you have to deal with, your c4 position will never land in the same place when you're shooting it etc, whereas with this new system, it'll simply be the exact same 'wow i looked at his prop and blowtorched it and then looked up to make sure he didnt open his fading door, omg he did i got a shot off but he closed it omg im dead now', there's both less room for error and skill involved than there is with the current raiding/basing system, which is exactly the opposite of what one of your points to go ahead with this change stated.

overall if this is pushed there's less skill ceiling, less skill needed, less everything needed and its just a plain boring darkrp server with the only 'skill' that you can improve on being your aim, aside from that there's nothing to experiment with or learn to use.


Edit:

  

10 minutes ago, Packet said:

This makes intricate or unique bases few and far between.

surely the proposed system is the exact same way though? longer bases will have more of an advantage because well it takes more time to get through the base and u have more risk of dying will running from end to end, every base will still have just 3 fading doors either in a row or on opposite ends of eachother, and the necessity to make your base spread out or harder for someone to place a c4 on the side of it without it being shot off is just gone. there will be no 'unique' bases made as it's the same basing system that every other darkrp server has been using for years, everything has already been done and it will simply carry over onto here, i also don't see how different and intricate these new bases will be when at the end of the day its still going to be 'propspam' to prevent blowtorching 1 prop and getting in and just a row of fading doors with a shooting station at the back only this time it's controlled by a button when they want to shoot.

 

  

15 minutes ago, Packet said:

Doesn't make sense to have a weapon benefit basing, especially if you don't plan on basing it makes enchanting useless. 

well the entire point of nerfing the enchants is to make them more passive/basing orientated, while still having some damage powerups but not having the insane super fast firerate buffs. enchanting is gambling, also there's already a printer enchantment effect, so this 'issue' you're having already exists. i think having weapon enchants be more passive instead of 'u now have a 20% chance to make someone slow and blurry screened and reduced sensitivty for 8 seconds' would be a better way to approach a weapons nerf while still making weapon enchants useful (of course keep the non lethal stuff if you really want but dont add in more non-lethal/blind/ignite related gun enchants)

 

 

Edited October 2, 2022 by Tene

[Hoopajoop]

39 minutes ago, Tene said:

surely using your knowledge in a way that outplays the defender is the definition of being more skillful. again if you're saying the angle thing that literally does not exist, there is not 1 angle that will get you through an entire base by spamming timebombs there (again unless its a hotel base OR you're making some part of your body visible to be shot), and c4 are unpredictable in both the distance forward and vertically when shot along with the defender being able to just shoot it back.

also being able to raid a base on your own should require resources, it shouldnt just be oh you log on and can do it without losing anything since your cc already has a lockpick on it.

 

 

lots of different angles this can be done from too, to accommodate bunkers set on the other side of the door if needed

 

throw in some smokes so they can't shoot bombs back, maybe a deployable shield or two if you're paranoid

 

knock a few layers out with timebombs and switch to shooting in c4 if you're feeling spicy

 

i guess you could call it skill, but idk

i really don't feel like this hits the mark of an outplay

Edited October 2, 2022 by Hoopajoop

[Packet]

Bases can be more compact if c4 is removed. Yeah you still need to brace against blowtorches but bases don't have to have room specifically to be able to survive taking 1-2 c4. You can easily sit outside someone's base, outside of their LOS, and prep c4 to raid their base. This removes a lot of the skill in raiding and defending and just makes it a battle of who has better aim or weapons, almost completely removing the base aspect in some cases. For example, most bases uses anywhere from 2-6 layers of fences to be able to brace against c4 raids. Every c4 will blow up anywhere between 1-2 layers of fences, maybe 3 in rare scenarios or depending on the spacing between them. If c4 is removed, you can add more props in your first layer or two, bracing against blowtorches. Hell, you could even stack props inside each other to make it take longer to blowtorch through them and still have the same amount of defense a giant maze fence would have if this change is made. 

 

Bases being smaller and more compact would allow for people to have more props to build different. Yes, potentially like other servers but it may be better than things are now. Entities need buffed in several ways as well. A lot of balancing would have to happen to make this a reality. Breaching charges for props could be an alternative. You'd still have to run up to place them but it would effectively blow up the prop, same as c4. There are a lot of changes that could be made, just depends on what the end goal is expected to be.

 

I know basing as it is now, depends on base location and who is online. If you have someone like malicious online, your base is gonna be gone eventually because he has an endless supply of c4. It also seems like a lot of newer players aren't aware of c4, blowtorches, etc. And build how you regularly would and get raided extremely easily. This is something else I think should be addressed, whether changes or made or not. 

[bugman]

4 hours ago, Mori said:

New users will always have disadvantages.

Like I said in my original post this is just an undeniable fact that people fail to acknowledge for some reason

 

2 hours ago, Tene said:

overall if this is pushed there's less skill ceiling, less skill needed, less everything needed and its just a plain boring darkrp server with the only 'skill' that you can improve on being your aim, aside from that there's nothing to experiment with or learn to use.

and this will be the result of people not acknowledging that fact and complaining that the skill ceiling needs to be tanked. With a drop in the skill ceiling old players who have spent the time to git gud will be dissuaded from playing and new players to think "why would I choose this server over any other."
 

[Merhaculous]

Future titsrp innovative professional raiders base cam leaked footage.

https://medal.tv/games/garrys-mod/clips/D6NAfNPdvKMir/d1337oQ7SDym?invite=cr-MSxGdDIsMjE1MTM5MzUs

Doesnt this just scream excitement?

Edited October 2, 2022 by Merhaculous

[Hoopajoop]

23 minutes ago, Merhaculous said:

Future titsrp innovative professional raiders base cam leaked footage.

https://medal.tv/games/garrys-mod/clips/D6NAfNPdvKMir/d1337oQ7SDym?invite=cr-MSxGdDIsMjE1MTM5MzUs

Doesnt this just scream excitement?

we gonna pretend that dropping a smoke grenade and tossing in explosives is any more exciting?

 

not a fan of either method tbh, but we'll never come up with anything more engaging and fun if every discussion on the matter goes the way it tends to on these forums