"FTC" ban for "not being specific enough" with competency test law

[Goldfish0]

In-Game Name

Goldfish0

Your Steam ID

STEAM_0:0:125120570

Why were you banned or warned?

Banned for FTC

Why should you be unwarned/unbanned?

Becuase I believe i made every effort to correct my original mistake based on what the staff member said was the problem

Who warned/banned you?

Dev2 or Dev1 or whatever

How long were you warned or banned for?

1 day

Hi, so prepare to read if you care enough, idrc, i was advised to make an appeal due to how questionable the ban was.

So, I'm playing mayor and decide to make a competency test law to celebrate the old coco change being reverted. I make a law stating "Type !p Gold within 3 minutes for competency test or be demoted from cp." I thought this was  a clear enough law for CP players to understand that they needed to PM me for a competency test, and that if they failed the test or didnt message me that they would be demoted. About five minutes later i get around to firing the CP who haven't yet messaged me (this included Dev2 and Hyder) I first demoted Dev2 with the reason being "not messaging the mayor for test" or something along those lines, then a little later demoted Hyder for the same thing. 

Unfortunately Hyder messaged me literally at the exact same time as i clicked the button to demote him ( proof: https://medal.tv/games/garrys-mod/clips/1UAE4cJhxPs1kT/d1337pe8G8SK?invite=cr-MSxQbmEsMjEyODczODQ4LA ) 

Side note, after making this clip I able unable to find the original 20minute recording so I'm going to have to go by word of mouth from now on

A few seconds after demoting Hyder I am pulled to a sit by Dev2 with Hyder present. Dev2 then proceeds to warn me for "x2 False Demote" for demoting hyder "after" he messaged me and for demoting Dev2. Dev2 said that he had typed "!p Gold" and thought that was all he had to do, so therefore me demoting him was a false demote because it wasnt made clear in my law that he need specifically to DM me to take the test.

After being warned I was returned and changed the law to something along the line of "Type -> !p Gold hi for competency test or be demoted from cp" thinking that would be sufficient to prevent the previous misunderstanding between myself and Dev2 from happening again. While in the previous sit i was messaged by user DA BUSHMASTER something something asking me to send him the competency test question(s). I then sent him the question "You see the abomination and gru talking to each other in public, what do you do?" and after he messaged me back stating that he would arrest them both i fired him due to one of my laws stating that all default AOS laws were no longer AOS, specifically mentioning Gru and Abomination. 

I am shortly afterwards brought to sit with Dev2 and Bushmaster, Bushmaster and I talk about whether or not I could change the default law/illegal activity that i changed in my aforementioned law, Dev2 doesn't pay much mind and is sorting through slogs the entire time, he then asks me if I fired him after I was warned, I said yes and that I thought the new competency test law was sufficient to prevent any more misunderstandings but due to the fact that I didn't state specifically that failing the competency test would result in a demotion I was banned for "FTC". 

I stated multiple times in both sits that common sense was expected when interpreting both iterations of the competency test laws but apparently I wasn't specific enough in either. I find it hard to imagine someone can state all the specifics of the law in a single law as the max characters for a single law is very small and hard to fit alot of details in. 

Anyways, i've stated my case, sorry I wasnt able to provide more video evidence but as previously mentioned the 20 minute recording got clipped into the video viewable in the above link and I'm not sure how to revert the clipping as I'm pretty new to Medal.

If you've read this far into the post I commend you for your patience/interest and would appreciate your input, thanks.

[Ironfish1]

4 minutes ago, Goldfish0 said:

 

Unfortunately Hyder messaged me literally at the exact same time as i clicked the button to demote him ( proof: https://medal.tv/games/garrys-mod/clips/1UAE4cJhxPs1kT/d1337pe8G8SK?invite=cr-MSxQbmEsMjEyODczODQ4LA ) 
 

This timing is literally the exact same frame. You should not have been warned for this.

5 minutes ago, Goldfish0 said:

Dev2 said that he had typed "!p Gold" and thought that was all he had to do, so therefore me demoting him was a false demote because it wasnt made clear in my law that he need specifically to DM me to take the test.
 

It is common sense that your law intended for cops to pm you asking for a competency test. If the law said nothing other than "type !P gold or be demoted" this would make sense, but given all of the context it is obvious you expected a pm to begin a test. You should not have been warned for this.

8 minutes ago, Goldfish0 said:

I am shortly afterwards brought to sit with Dev2 and Bushmaster, Bushmaster and I talk about whether or not I could change the default law/illegal activity that i changed in my aforementioned law, Dev2 doesn't pay much mind and is sorting through slogs the entire time, he then asks me if I fired him after I was warned, I said yes and that I thought the new competency test law was sufficient to prevent any more misunderstandings but due to the fact that I didn't state specifically that failing the competency test would result in a demotion I was banned for "FTC". 

So because you didn't have the specific phrase of "Fail the test = be demoted" in your law you are not allowed to demote people for failing? This makes no sense and is just splitting hairs. This gives me the feeling that he was looking for any reason to ban you at the time. You should not have been banned for this.

9 minutes ago, Goldfish0 said:

I stated multiple times in both sits that common sense was expected when interpreting both iterations of the competency test laws but apparently I wasn't specific enough in either. I find it hard to imagine someone can state all the specifics of the law in a single law as the max characters for a single law is very small and hard to fit alot of details in. 

Common sense is necessary with laws. If we went down the route that dev is setting right now the laws would need to be extremely specific, and if they're not then you just get banned for FTC or warned for fail rp. We have so many different avenues people can take if they do not like the mayor: revolts, unfun, buying out the mayor, mayors assassin. If we take the logic for your FTC ban then anyone who just does "guns/sweps are AOS/5k" needs to be punished as well for not being specific enough and having their law "Possessing a firearm without a firearms license, or possessing a swep in any form is AOS or a 5k fine.". I am a +1 for an unban and a removal of your warn, and a +1 for a strike/talking to dev. This is a darkrp server, not a Serious Cop RP server.

[Smelly]

This is actually insane if all this is true. I’ll wait until Dev has a chance to comment his side before I cast my vote. If this story is as you say it is, Ironfish summed it up exactly how I was thinking while reading. 
 

I don’t know if you guys have a history or something but this to me is skirting that line of targeting players. If your story checks out, there is no reason any of this should have happened to you.

 

Saying an ADMIN of all people couldn’t work out that they needed to message you asking for the question, we may all be doomed.

 

The only issue I see being a thing is setting laws targeting specific jobs however I think that is more appropriately quoted when taking rights away from specific jobs rather than giving rights to specific jobs, however you definitely are allowed to override some illegal activity. I would be interested in seeing your law about AOS jobs and how it was worded
 

As I said, I will wait for verification of the story from Dev before voting

Edited February 11 by Smelly

[Goldfish0]

I pressed my record button twice thankfully so here is a clip of the first sit

https://medal.tv/games/garrys-mod/clips/1UAzycRWGkT1FG/d1337yWJ7wWN?invite=cr-MSxCMUcsMjEyODczODQ4LA

[Developer]

Good afternoon Goldfish0! I will now be giving my side of the story(as all staff members should wait for before voting..)

 

First and foremost, the reason you were banned for the length of one day was you continued to cause issues false firing cops as you very obviously cannot handle playing a simple job such as the mayor after being warned. I'm not sure where this precedent of you don't need to be specific in your laws is coming from, as this is how it's been for almost 3 years now. The rule states "Firing your CP for no RP reason is not allowed. This is an RP server please use RP or you may get removed from the job." You did not state a valid RP reason to be fired for! The only valid RP Reason you said that a CP would be fired for is not typing "!p Gold". (Goldfish0 (Mayor) (STEAM_0:0:125120570)  added law Type !p Gold within 3 minutes for competency test or be demoted from cp <10-02-2024 / 22:03:30>)

And that's exactly what I did:

 

2021 Forum post reiterating what I'm saying that got accepted for FailRP:

And I was referencing to this comment for why I punished you for not being specific enough: 

To give you a more recent example on what information I've been going on:

It was agreed upon on this report by Senior Moderators/Moderators that the law clearly has a VALID RP Reason (Fail = fire

 

It's pretty late and I'm not going to sit here typing for hours and giving more explanation as to why I think your ban was deserved, and In my opinion the competency test rule should've never been reverted. It only caused issues like this and had no harm being removed from the server completely. 

[Goldfish0]

Quote

First and foremost, the reason you were banned for the length of one day was you continued to cause issues false firing cops as you very obviously cannot handle playing a simple job such as the mayor after being warned.

In all of the examples you provided of this happening in the past, the laws were as specific as I was with a simple "!p username" and that was never brought up as an issue in those posts, i.e. common sense was used by the cop players at the time, making it the standard to assume cop players would have common sense in this case. Under this precedent me firing you specifically for not messaging me in any way, not even to say that you typed a command no one but yourself could see, was pretty valid grounds for a firing in my mind, especially given everything you've posted and the common sense shown by cop mains when put in this situation themselves. 

In Hyders situation I think the first clip I posted makes it painfully obvious that I received his message and fired him in the same exact frame, so I mean if you want to continue splitting hairs feel free to keep the x1 False Firing but I think that would be in bad taste personally.

But anyways, when it comes to the "FTC" ban, considering the only thing you told me I needed to fix during the first sit was to make the requirement of actually messaging me with the !p command more specific. I changed my law to include an introductory "hi" that was to follow the PM command (Type -> !p Gold hi for competency test or be demoted from cp) which, if anything should've showed my willingness to comply. 

Bushmaster then called a sit on me because I fired him for failing the competency test, I'm assuming the sit was in regards to him thinking he was right and not that he was under the assumption that even if he failed the test he couldn't be demoted as it was your assumption. You then ignored the conversation he and I had over the correctness of his answer and decided that because I didn't specifically say that failing the test would result in a demotion/firing, that I was once again false firing. 

So basically, even after I fixed the only thing you told me I needed to fix during the first sit, and being reported for another entirely separate issue, you still deemed that I was "Failing to Comply" even though you never gave me a chance to comply with the newly found issue in my law.

 

I'm not sure what to call that but I certainly think that I made every effort to comply and fix the unclear aspects of my initial law which you brought to my attention during the first sit. At no point was I obstinate in correcting the issues you found in my law, nor would I have been if you had given me a chance to change my previously amended law after you contrived that because I didn't specifically state that "fail=fire" in my law, that I false fired Bushmaster.

So basically there are ALOT of split hairs in this thread when it comes to the reasoning for the FTC ban, based on how you were set on acting during the sit I think it would've made alot more sense to just CP Ban me for a period of time, simply demote me from the job, or warn me for a third "false fire" due to the fact that you thought I was not specific enough in my law but still firing players for failing/not responding.

Sorry for writing an essay
;tldr I complied with amending the issues that were brought to my attention by the staff. And that based on previous standards set by staff and cop players, it was logical to assume my initial law was asking players to type some sort of message after the !p Goldfish command, which Dev didnt do, and Hyder did do about 2 minutes after the required window of three minutes, at the exact same time I fired him.

[Goldfish0]

Even in the forum posts you linked, staff are assuming that having "!p (username)" and "fail=fire" are specific enough for anyone to understand the statutes of the law. Based on how much scrutiny you are applying to how the laws are written I wouldn't say simply typing "fail=fire" would be detailed enough to pass your judgment as it was displayed last night, but it is still acceptable after staff and players alike use a little something called "common sense" to deduce what the law is declaring.

[Smelly]

I’m not a big fan of how you were returned during that sit as well. There was obviously more to be said but he shut it down and wasn’t interested. This is such a bad look, I’m sorry about this Goldfish0

 

+1 for warn removal, unban immediately, and ban removal and something needs to be done about this at a staff level. 
 

 

[Jewann]

"laws don't go by how obvious they are, they go by clarity" > warn > return......

 

I am +1 for an unban.

[JeromeASF]

10 hours ago, Developer said:

Good afternoon Goldfish0! I will now be giving my side of the story(as all staff members should wait for before voting..)

 

First and foremost, the reason you were banned for the length of one day was you continued to cause issues false firing cops as you very obviously cannot handle playing a simple job such as the mayor after being warned. I'm not sure where this precedent of you don't need to be specific in your laws is coming from, as this is how it's been for almost 3 years now. The rule states "Firing your CP for no RP reason is not allowed. This is an RP server please use RP or you may get removed from the job." You did not state a valid RP reason to be fired for! The only valid RP Reason you said that a CP would be fired for is not typing "!p Gold". (Goldfish0 (Mayor) (STEAM_0:0:125120570)  added law Type !p Gold within 3 minutes for competency test or be demoted from cp <10-02-2024 / 22:03:30>)

And that's exactly what I did:

 

2021 Forum post reiterating what I'm saying that got accepted for FailRP:

And I was referencing to this comment for why I punished you for not being specific enough: 

To give you a more recent example on what information I've been going on:

It was agreed upon on this report by Senior Moderators/Moderators that the law clearly has a VALID RP Reason (Fail = fire

 

It's pretty late and I'm not going to sit here typing for hours and giving more explanation as to why I think your ban was deserved, and In my opinion the competency test rule should've never been reverted. It only caused issues like this and had no harm being removed from the server completely. 

You are taking these -1s out of context. You are also just being dumb, you should know what that law meant and how to !p. This is a horrible look for you dev1 goldfish needs to be unbanned and some sort of punishment needs to happen against you.