False Ban

[Ash]

Your Steam Name: Ash

Your ingame name: Ash

Your Steam Profile/SteamID: STEAM_0:1:95989116

Why were you banned?: Because I  killed him for kidnapping my party member while I was a cop

Why should you be unbanned?: Because I broke no rules

 

Who banned you? Mentor Peanut Butter

Evidence: 

http://steamcommunity.com/id/asxcinis/screenshots/

http://steamcommunity.com/id/asxcinis/screenshots/

http://steamcommunity.com/id/asxcinis/screenshots/

http://steamcommunity.com/id/asxcinis/screenshots/

http://steamcommunity.com/id/asxcinis/screenshots/

http://steamcommunity.com/id/asxcinis/screenshots/

What I said was over voice and I said that good boy was in my party so I could kill him and he just ignored it and was rude

[Jimmy Fimmy]

I was in Ash's party when this happened and even though others on the street were also saying he shouldnt be warned for it, Mentor Peanut Butter went ahead and didn't warn him but gave him an excessive ban of three days.

[Stephanie]

Not much evidence whatsoever but it seems like all you did was KOS someone for breaking the rules as a cop. This report is very little detailed and Mentor hasn't given his side of what happened but 

 

If it was just 1 time that you KOSd someone instead of arresting them and weren't given any warnings prior then

 

+1 for unban 

 

However you said that you killed him because the player he kidnapped was in your party and in this case it would appear that Mentor is just salty that you killed him and should have gotten a 2nd opinion or looked at it from a different perspective. But until Mentor speaks upon this topic I haven't reached a final decision.

[Walter the Assaulter]

Peanut Butter may have a very good explanation for this. Let us wait.

[Mr. Peanut Butter]

Okay so basically I was hobo lord and I was kidnapping people and sacrificing them to allah by setting them on fire in my hobo box. So I kidnapped someone as I put him in the fire I was one shotted from behind at apparently point blank range by this player, who was a cop, so I jailed them. I was trying to explain to them that as a CP you must always attempt to make an arrest and only kill if the suspect poses a threat. They argued that because they were in a party with the victim that they were allowed to kill me, which in different circumstances would be true, but I tried to explain that this did not excuse the fact that they were a CP and Killed me on sight without any sort of warning or attempt at detainment or anything. The player's friends started yelling over the sit arguing the same false logic they had, so I went to the sit plane, unjailed and jailtped them to me to try to explain it again in private. I also checked the player's record and found that I had warned them for a very similar CP Abuse in the past, meaning I have also explained it to them in the past and they should have already learned from it. The Warn was for RDM | Excessive CP Force (KoS Past 2nd PD Door). They did not accept my findings and decided they were gonna start screaming abuse and asking for other staff and report the incident to the forums. That's fine, I thought, you will have plenty of time to do so. I banned them for Excessive CP Force (KOS for Kidnap) | RDM. I was going to add Noncompliance since they made a scene but I feel like it was more of an actual shock of cognitive dissonance causing them to be actually unable to comprehend the rule rather than actually defying what I said, but that's just my opinion.

 

I did take some time afterwards to consider the other side of the argument and after asking and getting responses from 2 Admins about the specific scenario I am still confident that what this player did is not allowed. If necessary I can link attachments to screenshots of the conversation. Another Reference I have is Dindu, a third Admin who I also recently discussed the rule about, specifically when it IS okay to KOS criminals as a CP, implying in and of itself that it is usually not allowed in most circumstances. My conversation with Dindu concluded that a circumstance that a CP could KOS criminals (besides the obvious ones such as PD Raids, CP Raids, Terror Attacks, and suspects resisting CP or attacking people with deadly weapons) would be if the CP involved is not in a position to make an arrest, such as a CP sniper up on a roof who witnesses a kidnapping with no other units responding, the most viable if not the only viable solution to that particular problem is to shoot them. But this player was right behind me and I never knew until I was dead so an arrest would definitely have been viable to at least attempt, although I can't promise I won't resist, eventually he probably would have killed me anyway. The main thing that got this person banned was their insisting that they were in the right to walk up and gun me down as a cop because "typing !party overrides cop rules" (an actual echo-quote from the subject during interview).

---

It should be noted however that I could not find any rules about this in the motd nor could I find anything about it anywhere else other than the Civil Protection Department Policy that I wrote myself as part of a CP Guide that was pinned as an official thread until sugar removed all the guides to make that forum look cleaner. Although, with how long I have been on the server now I assume that I based those guidelines off of my pre-existing knowledge of the server rules rather than writing it myself, especially since 2 of the older admins agree with it. If all I had to go off of was the !motd the closest excuse I can come up with is that "You cannot be Corrupt" -Cop Rules and "Killing other players is illegal" -Default Laws are the only quotes from MOTD that cab really apply to this case. That, or we can umbrella it into "FailRP", or we could even say that you must get involved in a situation before countering, and that parties are not "getting involved" (in a rp scenario), but although that's technically true, it would contradict the way 97% of the staff team enforces counter rules, in that they do consider it rp involvement, as do I. And I believe it was changed but not in the motd. Basically what I'm saying is I believe the motd could use a rework in all honesty. Common sense doesn't exist anymore and the community wants more clear, concise, precise, exact wording for their rules so they can all rp as lawyers. (the last part is just for teh lulz)

[samma]

I was always under the notion that a police officer could either attempt to arrest the player or eliminate what they perceived as a threat. Especially when thinking of it from a roleplay point of view, if someone is being kidnapped and held hostage, you would probably want to eliminate the kidnapper while he is in the action of kidnapping rather than attempting to arrest the player, because it is easier to not only rescue the person being kidnapped since the threat of the kidnapper is not there, but it is also easier to kill the kidnapper so he can no longer kidnap (obviously he can come back later but that's not the point, roleplaying the situation is something that should happen in a roleplay server). 

 

Of course I may be wrong considering you had admins to talk to that agreed with you, but I do not have the MOTD to go off of, likewise the player you banned did not either, because as you said the rule is not in there. If a rule is not clearly stated in the MOTD itself, but you know it is to be enforced, it is better to warn the player and inform them of the rule, especially on a first time offense. If an admin said so to you then the rule stands, but not everyone has had the honor to speak to an admin over this rule. Therefore, how are they to know that it does in fact stand? 

 

We usually warn anyways for rules like that, I rarely see a player banned for countering a kidnap without being in a party. I would've warned the man and explained him the rule instead of banning him for the maximum amount of time, because it's a rule that he had no right to understand given what he had available to him. The MOTD may need a rework to add the rule as you say, but until then the rule is not actually in the MOTD so it's not the smartest idea to ban people for it. 

 

The man was simply trying to roleplay a cop to what he saw fit, and didn't understand a rule because it wasn't clearly stated. He broke the rule, now give him a second chance to play the server without breaking the rule now that he will understand.

 

 

 

+1 for unban

+1 for warn

[Mr. Peanut Butter]

a lot of your comment does make sense but a lot of it is inconsistent and makes me doubt you read my statement in its entirety. I'm hurt that you would disrespeck me like this.

 

Anyway, I am thinking I will probably unban this player and turn this into a discussion. If you have staff chat you should read it, as even the admins and sugar are confused as to why its not in the rules and if it even still needs to be.

 

So since the rule is currently under discussion this ban appeal is accepted. User will be unbanned.

[Ash]

I  would have taken a warn and been done with it and when shot him I was about 50 feet away and had no one to help arrest him so I took action and shot him I understand your point of view now but I feel that a 3 day ban was too much and would of just taken the warn.

[Monoxide]

You were unbanned dingus. Don't push your luck anymore than you have to.

 

ACCEPTED